The Let’s Play Podcast

Episode 5: The Campfire Girls, Part 1

Samantha Strelitz (Mary-Beth Gaskill, RDR2), Jo Armeniox (Karen Jones, RDR2), Meeya Davis (Tilly Jackson, RDR2)

Podcast Transcript

TRANSCRIPTS ARE GENERATED USING A COMBINATION OF SPEECH RECOGNITION SOFTWARE AND HUMAN TRANSCRIBERS, AND MAY CONTAIN ERRORS. PLEASE CHECK THE CORRESPONDING AUDIO BEFORE QUOTING IN PRINT.

 Sam Strelitz [00:00:00] I heard stories of people dressing up as FedEx workers or U.P.S. workers and trying to show up at the studio to like get a look at what was going on inside. So I feel like we got the opposite end of that where it was like, don't you say another word.

Verta Maloney, the*gameHERs [00:00:19] Welcome to Let's Play by the*gameHERs. A podcast hosted by actress Kylie Vernoff. Fans know Kylie best as the fiery Susan Grimshaw in Red Dead Redemption 2 and Miranda Cowan in GTA V. Our series features some of the most informed and exciting people in the gaming industry today. Kylie and our guests discussed careers, gaming and so much more. If you like what you hear, be sure to check out thegamehers.com website to hear exclusive bonus material from each of our guests.

Kylie Vernoff [00:00:54] Hey, everybody, I have some very exciting news. In today's interview, I'll be sitting down for part one of a two part episode with three of my fabulous costars from Red Dead Redemption 2. We'll have Sam Strelitz, who plays Mary-Beth Gaskill, Jo Armeniox, who plays Karen Jones, and Meeya Davis, who plays Tilly Jackson. This was a live interview where we literally sat around a makeshift campfire, marshmallows and all. And if you played our game, you'll know there is some colorful language around the campfire. We've kept it to a minimum here, but fair warning. We are outlaws after all. All right. I can't wait for you to get to know these fabulous women. So let's get right into it.

Kylie Vernoff [00:01:36] Well, hey, everybody, and welcome to this very special camp fire edition of Let's Play by the*gameHERs. I am your host. Kylie Vernoff. And I play Susan Grimshaw in Red Dead Redemption 2. And I am so excited to introduce to you, together for the very first time, my beloved camp girls. So here we have Sam Strelitz, who plays Mary-Beth Gaskill. We have Jo Armeniox, who plays Karen Jones. And we have Meeya Davis, who plays Tilly Jackson. And thank you guys all so much for being here. I'm so excited.

Meeya Davis [00:02:10] You're welcome, happy to be here.

Kylie Vernoff [00:02:12]  I think that I want to get right to the question that I hear the most from fans, which is, are you guys really this close in real life?

Jo Armeniox [00:02:21] Oh, that's the number one question? That's so funny.

Kylie Vernoff [00:02:25] That is what I hear more than anything else on social media, is you guys have so much fun together. Are you really that close in real life?

Jo Armeniox [00:02:32] That means we get to be friends forever.

Sam Strelitz [00:02:33] Yeah, I feel like people see that on social media, though. I feel like we hang out often enough and post about it that I feel like you get kind of like insight into our actual lives, which is that we are friends in real life.

Kylie Vernoff [00:02:45] I mean, honestly, I've loved being a part of this game and everything that has come with it. But the whole gang is like a real family to me. But particularly this friendship between the four of us is more than I could have ever dreamed of from a job. And it continues to evolve and just, you know, bring me so much joy. So I love you all.

All [00:03:07] I love you so much!

Kylie Vernoff [00:03:09]  I want to get a little background. Like, my whole goal for this interview is just not to bore Jo. So we don't need like stories. But I also hear a lot from people that want to know how we got into acting. Right. So I think a lot of fans want to get into acting or getting to performance capture. And so let's talk a little bit about that. We'll start with you, Sam. So a you're a Long Beach girl.

Sam Strelitz [00:03:39] I'm a California native, Southern California native. I actually recently... I've been going home a lot recently kind of going to New York, L.A., a lot. And I've been siphoning through all of my old notebooks and everything. I found a note to myself when I was in elementary school, and it was like, what do you want to be when you grow up? It said I wanted to be a singer like. And I remember, I've been in, you know, choral and chamber choir and ensembles, everything ever since I was a little kid. And it's so funny because I remember it as always wanting to be an actor from, you know, the first time I saw Phantom of the Opera. You know, when I was like six years old or something crazy. But then I read that and I was like, that's really crazy. I guess I blocked that out because as far as I can remember I always wanted to be an actress. You know, I did every class that was ever offered to me, middle school up. And then I did summer stocks and stuff like that. So I just really had that desire.

Kylie Vernoff [00:04:38] Yeah. I think I heard somewhere that you started begging your mom for an agent at like age eight. is that true?

Sam Strelitz [00:04:41] Oh my gosh. Yeah, I did. Every year for my birthday. She was like, what do you want? I was like an agent. She was like, cool. So we bought a book. Like, how do you get your kid into show business at Barnes Noble, may it rest in peace.

Kylie Vernoff [00:04:59] No they're still there!

Sam Strelitz [00:05:00] Well, but are they? So, yeah. Yeah. I was pretty precocious.

Kylie Vernoff [00:05:08] So what brought you to New York then? If you were in L.A. and you had roots there, what brought you here?

Sam Strelitz [00:05:12] I came here for school. I went to NYU and I graduated and I kind of just stuck around and kind of, you know, wanted to see what acting as a professional actress looked like in the city, did a lot of, you know, indie theater and started there and did every single medium that you could possibly think of, and acting ever since..

Kylie Vernoff [00:05:32] I think New York gives you that. I think New York gives you this sort of freedom to try a whole lot of things out without all this pressure. You know, you don't have that like, landing a TV show right away, feeling that you have in L.A., at least for me.

Sam Strelitz [00:05:45] To me, there's a cool, like anonymity to living in the city where you don't feel... Like everyone's on their hustle. So you don't feel diminished by, you know, not acting every single day and just, you know, being able to have other things that you're pursuing as well.

Kylie Vernoff [00:06:00] Yeah, I was talking to someone else for this podcast, and she was saying how there may be more competition for things in L.A. in terms of amount of people going up for the same role. But in New York, everyone is so good. So it doesn't even really hurt when you don't get it. Because know that we're all there and we're all at the top of our game. And we can just root for each other in a way that feels...

Sam Strelitz [00:06:21] And when you see who gets the role, because I used to not do, it and then vis-a a suggestion by a friend of mine, they were like, have you ever looked online and seen who got the role that you went out for? And I'm like, no, I haven't. So I went down a rabbit hole, and it was actually really good and I was like, wow, if they wanted that person, then they weren't really looking for me. So whatever I was bringing just wasn't the right fit. It's not really that I didn't do the best version of, you know, my character for that role. It just wasn't going to be me if it was going to be her. Which is kind of like... it takes a lot of pressure off of you.

Kylie Vernoff [00:06:55] It's really freeing. We can't all be working all the time, so it's great. Can root for each other. Now, what about you? Because I heard that you started in community theater with your mom.

Jo Armeniox [00:07:05] Yeah, mom. Thanks, Mom.

Kylie Vernoff [00:07:07] In North Carolina.

Jo Armeniox [00:07:08] Yeah. She was doing Damn Yankees and I was like three years old and I was like, um excuse me, why am I not the lead in this production? She was like, what are you talking about? She's like, you want to be in this show? And I was like, Yeah. And she was like, okay, we'll take you to meet the director and you can audition like everybody else, you little brat. And I was like, fine. So i went and sang Happy Birthday to this guy named [00:07:32]Hal Parrish. [0.0s] I ended up doing regional theater with him as I grew up. That built my theater experience and career when I was a kid.

Kylie Vernoff [00:07:42] That's really cool. So he really knew you. from like, toddlerdom.

Jo Armeniox [00:07:46] Yeah. So he let me in the show and I have like blips of memories, when you're like a little tiny baby. And maybe I was like four or five actually because three seems really young. Whatever. Who cares? Nobody.

Kylie Vernoff [00:08:00] I'm not fact checking that particular statement.

Jo Armeniox [00:08:03] Yeah. So then I just kept doing regional theater throughout my childhood and like, you know. Did that whole thing.

Kylie Vernoff [00:08:10] I think I remember seeing some little news clip of you basically talking about how... I don't remember exactly what you said, Jo, but it was like, keeping it real. It was like, is this the greatest thing you've ever done? And you were like, not really.

Jo Armeniox [00:08:24] Yes. It was some local TV show. Because I was doing To Kill a Mockingbird. And they were like,  How has this experience been? Is it the greatest thing ever? No, it's fine. I think I just didn't understand the question.

Kylie Vernoff [00:08:43] It's just like essence of Jo.

Jo Armeniox [00:08:46]  I sound like a little redneck, too. It's very strange. I sound like a little redneck, too. it's very weird.

Kylie Vernoff [00:08:51] Now you just sounded like Karen!

Jo Armeniox [00:08:53] Take it back.

Kylie Vernoff [00:08:56] Okay. But Meeya, you're Detroit born, bred, raised. And you didn't start acting until high school, is that right?

Meeya Davis [00:09:04] So I didn't want to be an actress at all. My brother was an actor and I was just like, you do too much. So I was like, I'm going to be a lawyer because they make a lot of money. Psych.

Kylie Vernoff [00:09:16] I didn't know you wanted to be a lawyer.

Meeya Davis [00:09:18] I only did that because it was like the thing to say, you know what I mean? What do you want to be? A lawyer, a doctor, a nurse.

Kylie Vernoff [00:09:25] A veterinarian.

Meeya Davis [00:09:26] All of those things. I don't want to go to school for that long, and I didn't want to go to school for that long. So that's why I didn't become a lawyer.

Kylie Vernoff [00:09:33] But you really pursued your education in acting. You went and studied the classics in London. So you were in school a long time.

Meeya Davis [00:09:41] No, not really. I just did four years. But like emotionally, sure. It was forever. But yeah, I went to college and then it was just like, OK, cool. In high school I found the, like you said, the itch for it. And it was something that told me, like, you know, you can't... Not that I can't do anything else, but I can act like anything else. But I am an artist, so my vessel should be used for art. And that's just, that's what I do now.

Kylie Vernoff [00:10:08] Yeah. I have to say that the three of you and the rest of the cast in Red Dead are some of the best actors that I've ever encountered in my really long tenure in this business. I mean, they really cast the shit out of this thing. You are all artists. We are all artists. And we really... I think, every time we got out there, we got to just bring our best because we knew that our scene partner, whoever it was that day, would be right there with us. So I was thinking about my audition process and how I really had no idea what I was getting into. At all. Because I'd never played videogames at all. And I've talked a little bit about this, but because Rockstar, they hold everything so close.  They don't want anything leaking. My audition scene had nothing to do with a Western or anything. And I think that my audition scene was probably written by casting or someone.

Meeya Davis [00:11:07] That day.

Jo Armeniox [00:11:07] Yeah or the day before.

Kylie Vernoff [00:11:07] I mean it is right? Somebody wrote it but it was not from the canon. Let's just say it was not from the canon. And I think my character was like this drunken mother abusing her teenage daughter really viciously, which makes sense now if you watch.

Sam Strelitz [00:11:28] Sounds about right.

Kylie Vernoff [00:11:32] Yeah. And I was I was like, I don't know what this is. I don't know what an audition for a video game is, but I'm an actress, so I'm going to go act and just see what that would mean. And then I had the best time in that room, and I found out later that I was reading with you that day.

Jo Armeniox [00:11:48] Yeah. You were amazing. And then you apologize to me before you left because you were like, I'm so sorry, I yelled at you this whole time.

Kylie Vernoff [00:11:55] Really? That doesn't sound like me.

Jo Armeniox [00:11:57] because it was really abusive.

Kylie Vernoff [00:11:58] It was vicious .

Jo Armeniox [00:11:59] They take you to the limit so that they know that when you get whatever you are going to have, they know that you can go there. Do you know what I mean? And stuff that's like dirty, too. They want to know that we're cool with it.

Sam Strelitz [00:12:11] What I remember, I'm like, wow, that vocabulary was really uh... really loved it.

Jo Armeniox [00:12:16] Adult.

Kylie Vernoff [00:12:17] Was it? I don't remember it being like dirty chops in the audition.

Jo Armeniox [00:12:21] No, not yours. But some of the others.

Sam Strelitz [00:12:24] So I had my initial audition and then I had a callback, what I considered a callback but maybe it was just they were rerunning auditions months after the fact. And my initial audition I was just like dang! This is really down and dirty. Like she was saying crazy things, you know, being very provocative. She was trying to, like, seduce somebody, but also kind of like, you know, be weird to her roommate, like have a weird competition with her female roommate. I like remember actual lines from it, but I won't even go into that. And I just remember the funniest thing being like... I just remember thinking, wow, I must look really dumb right now because they have you walk around the room, and they're like, We just want to see your gait. And I just imagined that I was like [mimics a goofy walk].

Meeya Davis [00:13:13] My whole thing was very weird.

Kylie Vernoff [00:13:13] Well, tell me your thing.

Meeya Davis [00:13:18] I don't think I walked anywhere. I just walked in and I did the thing.

Jo Armeniox [00:13:23] You walked in.

Meeya Davis [00:13:23] I walked?

Jo Armeniox [00:13:23] Yeah. you did the whole dang thing.

Meeya Davis [00:13:26]  I might have been drunk that whole time.

Sam Strelitz [00:13:28] That's why you got the role! She went there.

Meeya Davis [00:13:32] I don't remember walking but I definite remember doing the scene. First of all, I don't even know what Rockstar was. I was like what? What is MoCap? I didn't know what it was. I didn't look up anything. I probably shouldn't be saying this on camera. I look up stuff now, but then I didn't look up anything.

Kylie Vernoff [00:13:49] I don't think you would have been able to find anything. I don't know how much they would have said.

Meeya Davis [00:13:52] What does it mean to be... What is Rockstar? I just was like, whatever, this is a commercial, let's just get it. So I walk in, I get the sides, and I'm reading them. I'm like, what kind of commercial is this? It was literally a scene that was like be as vulnerable as possible. I was like, is this for like, diarrhea? Yeah. It was like my boyfriend was supposed to pimp me out or something, but I was like, so submissive to him that I just said yes and cried. I remember the first time I did it, and then Adam was like. Do it again. And like, go deeper.

Jo Armeniox [00:14:31] Tony.

Meeya Davis [00:14:31] Tony said that. And i was like, what?

Jo Armeniox [00:14:32] And then you were like the only person that took a moment and paused before you. It was amazing because everybody else was like, OK. Like she actually thought about it. She made this huge life decision right in front of us. I'm getting chill bumps thinking about it.

Kylie Vernoff [00:14:50] I love that you have all this insight into this process.

Meeya Davis [00:14:53] I know like tell me more What else did i do? what did they say when i left?

Kylie Vernoff [00:14:53] How did I look that day?

Jo Armeniox [00:14:58] I think you had on like an orange shirt.

Meeya Davis [00:15:03] I did! Stalker.

Kylie Vernoff [00:15:04] So then, having all of that insight, what was it like for you to then go in? Did you have to go in and audition or did they just know your work so well.

Jo Armeniox [00:15:09] Oh Tony was amazing. He let me audition for, like, everything, like. And so I think Sam and I actually were supposed to have each other's roles, which I think is always fun to think about, because I definitely got the cooler one. I'm just kidding. Yeah. But like it was really interesting to...

Kylie Vernoff [00:15:26] Yes. Just stress eat while she says mean things.

Jo Armeniox [00:15:30] It was really interesting to come on set and go, You were so cool. You were so amazing.

Kylie Vernoff [00:15:37] Yeah. I mean I really appreciated that myself.

Meeya Davis [00:15:40] You said that to some people. You didn't say it to everyone.

Jo Armeniox [00:15:42] Oh, that is so not true. Because Kylie is right. Everybody that was involved in this project, you're talking about well over a thousand people.

Kylie Vernoff [00:15:50] I think Rockstar hired like twelve hundred skilled actors, which really I mean, that's amazing how many union actors they employ.

Jo Armeniox [00:16:01] Yeah. So for us to be in this position is like such an honor.

Kylie Vernoff [00:16:05] It really is. OK, so you must have had some sort of idea of what you were getting into. But I did not. I think you did not. And what I was told was when I went for the first day, I was told to wear comfortable undergarments. That is literally the only thing that I was told. So I had no idea I was wearing a motion capture suit or what that was. But I do remember my first day pretty clearly because Rob was there and he was just so kind. And gentle. Because let's talk about these suits that we wear.

Sam Strelitz [00:16:39] Let's skip it.

Kylie Vernoff [00:16:40] Let's skip it. Let's just say.

Jo Armeniox [00:16:43] Everything.

Kylie Vernoff [00:16:44] Everything shows. Literally every single thing in your body.

Meeya Davis [00:16:50] I enjoyed the view.

Kylie Vernoff [00:16:50] Here's what I think about a motion capture suit. I think everybody thinks that they look awful and everybody looks amazing.

Meeya Davis [00:16:57] Everybody looks great.

Jo Armeniox [00:16:57] [00:16:57]Jimson D'Angela [3.7s] told me he's like, I look at your Instagram and you look like this beautiful girl. And then i see you on set and you look like just a big doofus with all this stuff on.

Kylie Vernoff [00:17:12] Well he's in incorrect. But yeah so I had no idea what I was getting at all. And then the other thing is I had no idea I'd be coming back.

Jo Armeniox [00:17:24] Oh that's right. We all didn't know if we were like fired or if we were replaced.

Sam Strelitz [00:17:28] Yeah. I definitely thought I was fired after my first day. I knew what Rockstar was. I've dated a lot of gamers and I really was like, we're doing GTA guys, obviously, especially with what they called the Rockstar. Well because on the audition it was like... they called it San Andreas or something. I'm like. Nice try, folks. I know exactly what we're doing. And I went in and I really wanted it because I love the challenge of doing something that surprises me in acting. And to me, I'm like, doing a video game would just be absurdly frickin cool. And so I really, really, really wanted it. And, you know, to what Joe said about us potentially playing each other's characters, my sides were definitely not Mary-Beth friendly. I mean, they were crazy. That was bonkers bananas. And then my callback or my second round of auditions, it just wasn't at all what you would imagine Mary-Beth would be saying or doing. So I was like, oh okay. So then when I got in, I walked on set. I had a feeling, you know, I knew I had seen MoCap videos of other video games being recorded and, you know, rendered and animated and stuff like that. So I had an idea. But the MoCap suits are different across the board. I had no idea that... I was like, oh, my gosh, it's gonna be basically a full body spank. Like, that's gonna be really flattering. And then you get there and you put it on. You're like, this is really not flattering. It's like half of it's missing. Like, all of your trouble spots...

Kylie Vernoff [00:18:59] Cutouts on the trouble spots where it doesn't squeeze in.

Sam Strelitz [00:19:03] You just get to know people real quick because you're like, oh, that's your bum. And the first day that I had onset, which all of you ladies were at, I was going through a really bad breakup. And I have a hard time compartmentalizing sometimes, you know, I try to really get it together. But it's really difficult, as you probably all know. And so, as actors we're very emotional, or maybe not.

Meeya Davis [00:19:30] I'm stone cold.

Sam Strelitz [00:19:30] Yeah, not me. But I just remember just being so excited for the job, I got on set. It was the old studio. So it was just like a very different setting. And the green room was different and the setup was different. And you were just there with everyone who works on everything. And they had me kind of doing like little like menial things, like things that will probably happen in between scenes, not real scenes. And I remember just being really quiet and introverted and at the end of that day, walking out the studio and coming back to Manhattan and thinking, well, that was fun. That was my try. You know, that was my go at being in a video game. I'll never see those people again, you know. And then, what you sort of mentioned before. Every time they asked you to come again to set and you got pages, I just got so excited, you know, not getting through all of the material that day because I knew that I had another day on set. And that to me just was like one of those little shining things that I could, like, look forward to in the future. And that just became kind of a, you know, an ongoing experience.

Kylie Vernoff [00:20:45] Yeah, I think there did come a time in my experience where I started to understand that I was part of the Van der Linde gang. And so then probably I would get to continue on the journey. But I think that that might have been a couple of years in. What about you?

Meeya Davis [00:20:59] It was like a year before the game came out. I was just like, yeah, I'm in it. But before that I was like, they could come at any time. I don't know what's going on. It was very nerve racking. Cause I felt like I had... did I say something? Do I leave my email open? Like, did somebody see something? Because there was a big fiasco where they kept sending us to say, like, oh, change your passwords. Or like there's been a breach in the system. I'm like, was it me? I don't know, It could have been. I might have been drunk that day. I don't know. But it was always like I would hit you up like, hey, did you hear from our special friends? It was very scary.

Sam Strelitz [00:21:38] Well, there's no nuance to how they deal with that. I mean, there are like literally fliers all over the place. And you have to swipe in to all of the rooms because, you know, Rockstar goes to great lengths to make sure that the gamers that are playing the game have everything revealed in game and don't get information beforehand that would dictate how they feel about it, which is amazing. But at the same time, you know, I heard stories of people dressing up as FedEx workers or U.P.S. workers and trying to show up at the studio to like, get a look at, you know, what was going on inside. So I feel like we got the opposite end of that where it was like, don't you say another word. You know, we didn't want to. But at the same time, we were like, so what's happening?

Kylie Vernoff [00:22:22] I had a nightmare one night that was so bad that I woke my husband up at like 3:00 in the morning and I was having a panic attack. And in my dream, I had run into some friends at a party and I had seen Roger and I had said, oh, this is my friend Roger. We're working on the same job together. But I didn't say video game. I didn't say anything like that. I woke up, like, in a sweat. I had to wake my husband up and I was so shaken I didn't sleep the rest the night and I was working the next day. And I remember telling Roger that story, and our director was on set. And I was like, I mean, even if I had said I know Roger from another job, that wouldn't be a big deal. And he's like, it absolutely would. You are not allowed to do that. And I was like, [crying noises].

Meeya Davis [00:23:04] It took us years to actually hang out.

Sam Strelitz [00:23:04] We weren't even allowed to follow each other on social.

Meeya Davis [00:23:09] We could't do anything, until it came out. Those are my friends and I made them and I want to hang out with them. And I can do whatever I want.

Kylie Vernoff [00:23:18] That is such a joy that we can spend as much time together as we want and we can talk about like how we know each other and that's fabulous. Oh, I know what I wanted to ask you guys. First of all, did you all get to do robberies?

Sam Strelitz [00:23:32] Yeah, I have a stagecoach mission that some people have come across and some people have not come across where I'm basically the pawn... Spoiler alert! I'm basically the pawn, tricking some guys to, like, stop their stagecoach so that it can be robbed.

Meeya Davis [00:23:53] There was actually a scene between Roger and I that isn't in the game because they took a different turn from what they wanted us to be. And it was like I was working a John, but I was like setting him up. And Roger was supposed to come in and rob him or whatever. But I remember that scene. I was like...

Kylie Vernoff [00:24:14] Oh, I remember that scene. I think I was on set when you guys were shooting that.

Meeya Davis [00:24:18] Yes. And I was like, oh, OK. And then when they switched us all around and kind of like change our stories, that just never made it. But I did do one. But it's just not in the game.

Kylie Vernoff [00:24:28] Well, let's talk about that.

Sam Strelitz [00:24:30] That's interesting thought. Cause Jo, you have a scene in Valentine when we first get to Valentine where you're kind of doing the same thing, and they kept that. I know. So that's interesting.

Kylie Vernoff [00:24:42] Yeah. I remember that I think maybe my first understanding of when we come and rescue you from the Foremans, my initial understanding was that it was a John gone wrong. So let's talk about that because that is a really interesting thing. I think that when I first started working with all of you women, my understanding was that Susan was a madam. And that you were all working girls. That you were prostitutes. And I remember, like, you and I dying laughing one day when you were like, But Miss Grimshaw I don't feel well. And I was like, I don't care! Get to work! And you were like, get to work, you know.

Meeya Davis [00:25:18] Doing the deed in the room with the dude.

Sam Strelitz [00:25:22] In the tent.

Kylie Vernoff [00:25:23] Yeah, in the tent. But there did come a time like years in, when I realized that I was not seeing any scenes referring to that, that I wasn't hearing any scenes about that. And I think I realized that things had shifted and that when I was telling you girls to get to work, it would be cleaning. It would be sewing. It was like keeping the camp together. Darning a sock.

Jo Armeniox [00:25:48] Am I making this up in my head that we had somehow had an influence over that. And I don't know if that's actually the case because it's so long ago. It's so long ago. I'd like to think.

Meeya Davis [00:25:58] I would think, I wouldn't think so.

Jo Armeniox [00:26:00] Because it's kind of a shame to have a game, and we're all trying to represent and empower women now, and then have this male dominated industry, and then have them all be prostitutes. You know, it would be kind of a shame.

Kylie Vernoff [00:26:12] I really did feel that way. I felt like they started seeing, first of all, what incredible actresses we were and how we were there to play and how much value we could add to missions besides that old trope. And I sort of have the same thing in my head. I don't know if it's true or not. That Rockstar really made a pivot with the women, in particular, the four of us. However, like when I've played the game, Susan has a campfire scene where she says, you know, Whores talking to a madam? That never would have happened in my day! So there's still some flavor. But there's no whoring, right?

Jo Armeniox [00:27:00] [Laughing] I love how you said that.

Meeya Davis [00:27:00] You say what you want, Tilly does her own thing at night.

Sam Strelitz [00:27:00] She looks out for herself.

Kylie Vernoff [00:27:00] And, you guys have that experience, right?

Sam Strelitz [00:27:13] I think it's so much more interesting to make more complex, nuanced characters and to care more about their backstories and how they came across this gang and why they're outlaws and why they're kind of outside of the general society or different, you know, societies or communities that they come across in the towns. I think it gives more to the characters and I also think that we would have had a very different experience with fans had it been that way. And so I'm so grateful that it wasn't that, because I think it's really easy to pigeonhole women of a certain time that are doing kind of their own thing outside of regular society. And to say, well, it's because she was a prostitute. It's like, that just immediately you forget... there's nothing wrong with it. But I feel like, again, I truly believe that how the fans interact with us, how much the female fans care about our personal storylines and what that means to them would have taken on a different flavor. So to speak, you know, and I'm really grateful that regardless of whether or not it was us or Rockstar was like, this is not the story we need to tell about these women. I'm so grateful that it happened.

Meeya Davis [00:28:24] I definitely think it was us though. I'm just saying because if you're with us, although we can play a prostitute and again, there's nothing wrong with that. I think our individual spirits are so much more than that, that they could see that like, she's too big to just be that in this game. We need to make her story more than what it is. And I definitely think that they were like, Yeah, Karen is a junk but we like Karen, she got a story. You know what I mean? it was more like let's showcase the artists. Let's showcase the art.

Kylie Vernoff [00:28:56] And I did feel like our characters, I can speak for myself, but I also saw it in all of you, that we started getting our characters fleshed out more, that there was more backstory, that there was more color and nuance that we got to play with. So is there a scene for you, Meeya, that you think really sort of gives a clear vision of who Tilly is, like, reveals her character?

Meeya Davis [00:29:22] I think it's the scene where I'm talking to Arthur and he's talking about he feels like he's a bad person. And I tell him, you know, you can change. You're not a bad person. It's just you make bad decisions, but you have the opportunity to change. And I was like, this is good, this is pretty good. And it's a short kind of walk and talk. And that's it. When he encounters me in the camp and then that's it. But I was like, oh.

Kylie Vernoff [00:29:48] That's her core belief system.

Meeya Davis [00:29:53] Like you can make a bad decision, but you're not a bad person, you know. You still have to give yourself grace to be better. You know, I was like, yeah that's Tilly.

Kylie Vernoff [00:30:01] Yeah, that's really beautiful. And that is a central theme to the game. Especially if you're playing with high honor.

Meeya Davis [00:30:06] Exactly.

Kylie Vernoff [00:30:07] And what about you?

Jo Armeniox [00:30:09] Well, I want to talk about some of the scenes that didn't make in the game, but I'm not sure...

Kylie Vernoff [00:30:12] What you can or can't say?

Jo Armeniox [00:30:14] Yeah, so there is one there that I would love to talk about, but I don't want to do that. But like we had a bunch of stuff... I'm not entirely sure. I think there's so much stuff happening with you and me, and me and Penny. And we had a lot of stuff together. With Arthur and I, I'm not sure. There was stuff with me and Micah as well that was really cool. I had decided that Karen truly had like a crush on Micah and she like wasn't sure, and that's why she didn't know how to be around him. And like, he was so mean to her. I'll come back to that.

Sam Strelitz [00:30:47] Also deleted scenes.

Kylie Vernoff [00:30:50] I would say that in prepping for this talk today I was going back and really watching that scene just before your character wanders off. There are some spoilers going on here. So I think most people have played through. Where I'm talking about Molly and her fate and my responsibility for it, you're screaming at me. You are really letting me have it in a way that still sends chills through my spine. And I feel like for some reason you seem to be the only character that all of a sudden Susan gets shaken up, that she really is responsible for what happened in that situation. But what I thought was so incredible and revealing about Karen in that moment is when I say she knew the rules and she broke the rules, and you say, "She did not. She was in love." and how you wouldn't know that Karen is necessarily driven by this sort of pure understanding that when someone is in love, they might make different decisions.

Sam Strelitz [00:31:50] There are no rules.

Kylie Vernoff [00:31:51] There are no rules Right?

Jo Armeniox [00:31:53] And it still makes me angry that you killed her.

Kylie Vernoff [00:32:00] She did know the rules.

Jo Armeniox [00:32:01] She was in love.

Kylie Vernoff [00:32:05] But I loved that moment, and you just slayed that. I remember just watching you work that day.

Jo Armeniox [00:32:12] Penny, do you remember Penny's...

Kylie Vernoff [00:32:14] Yes, let's talk about Penny O'Brien, who is not here, but who plays Molly O'Shea.

Jo Armeniox [00:32:20] Right before that all goes down. Which you did brilliantly as well. But her, that, buildup! It was crazy!

Kylie Vernoff [00:32:27] Yeah. I'm calling Dutch to account for his actions in front of everybody.

Sam Strelitz [00:32:34] That was a hard scene to film, I felt. Because it was like forty nine million people, you know, and I'm screaming when she gets shot [makes surprised sound] and they're like, Okay, cool. So we're gonna maybe quiet that, and you can maybe ADR something in, but like we don't need you hysterical in the background. I'm like, but she would be. I'm like, Cool, I'm going to totally not do the full. But Mary-Beth absolutely would be. She would be beside herself.

Kylie Vernoff [00:33:04] Those large group scenes were tricky. A: They they were the best days. They were the best days because having everybody on set. I read something that Gabriel Sloyer who plays Javier said that unlike any other job he's ever had in his career. Every time he got a call sheet, he just lit up like a Christmas tree. And when it was those big group scenes, they were the best days, but they were also the hardest because it's choreography at that point. I think... well, first of all, I wanna hear about you. Is there a moment that sort of formulates Mary-Beth for you?

Sam Strelitz [00:33:40] Yeah, she changed for me drastically from the beginning to where we ended up, which was such a surprise. And I just get all warm and fuzzy when I heard about her future in the game. And I just found it to be amazing. And it kind of in retrospect, kind of informed certain things about what she said. And so I have a lot of scenes that I really loved with everyone that was in the game. But I think the one that really gave me some real insight into Mary-Beth was actually with Karen, Jo. And it was when they arrive in Valentine and they're going to go explore. And Mary-Beth is just like, Oh my God, we're in Valentine, so romantic. She goes off about how amazing this place is gonna be. And Karen's like, this is [00:34:33][unintelligible] [0.1s] . Mary-Beth's coping mechanism is to romanticize, and to find the hope and beauty in these things that are really hard times. And she's very introspective and she kind of goes into her fantasy world in order to, like, make the situation that she's in better. And I feel like she gives that to other characters along the way, a lot.

Meeya Davis [00:35:00] Definitely Tilly.

Sam Strelitz [00:35:00] Yeah, definitely Tilly. Even scenes with Karen, regardless of how Karen takes them. And I definitely think she cowers a lot to Susan. But that specific scene, I was like, oh, I get her. I always thought, because she says all these things like, oh, silly romance novels and she really downplays and diminishes what she's doing. But in that moment, I was like, no, this is her whole world.

Kylie Vernoff [00:35:24] She has that creative spirit.

Sam Strelitz [00:35:25] Yeah, I was going to say. And that's why I was like... you know, when they told me her ending, I was just like [tears of joy]. I was so vinidcated, she gets her dream. It's beautiful.

Kylie Vernoff [00:35:37] As fun as it was to work with you. And I just loved getting to work with you.

Sam Strelitz [00:35:41] You wanted to slap me around more?

Kylie Vernoff [00:35:42] A little bit. We'll get to that. I really gave you the business. No, but I knocked her on her ass. That was a great scene. It was about vanity. And that scene in particular,  there were always these things where you were trying to give Susan a chance and say, things are not so bad and love is real. And I think for Susan, she so much felt that things had changed for her. And she couldn't afford to look at that kind of hope. And then also, I think Susan's dealing with the fact that she has sort of aged out of that position in the camp of getting the attention from the men. And so I think she  thinks that she's giving Mary-Beth valuable advice, saying find something besides the way you look. But, of course, it comes out in this jealous tirade. Which would be so hard because I adore you.

Sam Strelitz [00:36:45] Oh, I love you. I mean, hope is very painful. Hope is a painful thing to hold on to. And I think that shows a lot throughout the game. You know, in terms of what you were talking about with Karen's scene and her saying she didn't break the rules, it was love. I mean, there's like these slivers, these gorgeous, beautiful moments where each of the characters kind of talk about hope. And it's like a dagger in your heart because, if you finish the game, you're like...

Kylie Vernoff [00:37:13] You know, I had this incredible experience. I was put on the phone with this veteran who actually works for the company that they tried to overcome depression and loneliness through gaming. But he was just a huge fan of our game and he was saying how it reminded him, and now I feel emotional, of what you go out and fight for when you have a home to come home to, and how coming home to the camp and really spending time with the people that are your family reminds you of why you're going out on these other missions, and having a place to come home to.

Sam Strelitz [00:37:51] Isn't it crazy that we get all of these experiences out of a video game. Truly. I just think it's incredible that you had that experience talking to somebody who was so moved and so in that mindset, and felt so emotionally attached to it. And it's a video game. It's like 80 hours of gameplay or something like that. It's much more immersive than a movie or even a TV show. It's like incredible that people have that, and like you said, you were brought to tears on the phone with this guy.

Kylie Vernoff [00:38:22] Yeah. And I was not expecting that at all. I was not expecting for that kind of emotional attachment from the fans. There's a lot of discussion about the difference between voice acting and performance capture. So, Jo, how would you describe performance capture to someone who was asking?

Jo Armeniox [00:38:42] The way Tony used to describe it, he would be like, you know Avatar? With all the balls? Avatar, all the balls. People would go, oh, right.

Kylie Vernoff [00:38:55] So the balls are little balls that the computers can catch, so that all of your movement can be recorded.

Sam Strelitz [00:38:59] They reflect the light, like all the lights. And that's how they pick up the movement.

Kylie Vernoff [00:39:04] Yeah. Right. And so I personally found it to be an incredibly freeing way to play scenes. Right? Because the cameras can catch you 360. So if you think about the fact that the player can enter from anywhere, the cameras have to catch all the action. So unlike when you're on a film set. If I go like this, well, I might have just come right out of my shot. But when you're doing a video game, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. So you just have all this freedom to just play.

Meeya Davis [00:39:36] Except for when we have to, like, touch each other. I'm stuck. The balls are stuck.

Kylie Vernoff [00:39:43] Hugging. Hugging is a hazard.

Sam Strelitz [00:39:45] I found dancing to be difficult too. I was like, this is not what it's supposed to look like. But the balls on the knuckles, I never got used to that.

Jo Armeniox [00:39:57] Oh, and every time we had to go to the bathroom.

Kylie Vernoff [00:40:00] Every time you have to pee, you have to lower your MoCap suit, the Velcro sticks to your gloves. Serious job hazard.

Sam Strelitz [00:40:06] Different for women than it is for men.

Meeya Davis [00:40:08] It was easier for men.

Kylie Vernoff [00:40:09] They need to fix that. They need to fix that. The men could just...

Sam Strelitz [00:40:13] We need like a butt flap.

Jo Armeniox [00:40:18] In terms of how it was shot. I thought, like Rod directing us and other amazing directors that we had did a great job. I mean, obviously, Rod has so much experience. People that were coming on there, like, oh, they were theater directors like Wendy. Just like, working in that world. And it ended up going so smoothly all the time, I was like, oh okay, we'll figure this out.

Kylie Vernoff [00:40:40] Yeah. There were things you had to look out for, like if you walk there, you're in a tent.

Jo Armeniox [00:40:44] Right. Or stepping on a horse. Not on a horse, but I'm in the horse.

Kylie Vernoff [00:40:49] That's one of the things that people ask, is that everything is a scale approximation of what it is. So people would say, like, if you're climbing on a horse, it is a structure built to the scale of a horse.

Meeya Davis [00:41:00] And they were huge. The horses that were built were huge.

Sam Strelitz [00:41:05] Were you guys on set the day that the dog was in the MoCap suit?

Jo Armeniox [00:41:09] Yes! Einstein.

Kylie Vernoff [00:41:12] Oh, I'm sorry. I got a whole day of dog work. They needed a female person. They knew that I was a huge dog lover. So I actually got to come in, not playing Susan, but just act with dogs all day. And it was maybe my favorite day.

Meeya Davis [00:41:30] They were so cute. And they had like their own little space in the back. And it was like, aw! Like, don't touch them.

Kylie Vernoff [00:41:35] And they'd be like, now he's just lyring next to your chair, and you're petting him next to your chair. And now his chin is on your lap and you're petting him. And now you're scolding him. And I was like, I won't! I will not! I am not Susan Grimshaw right now, and I am not scolding anybody. It's not in my contract.

Sam Strelitz [00:41:50] Yeah, you're like that dog's not going to understand that this is a scene. It's going to hate me.

Kylie Vernoff [00:41:57] Exactly. I thought one of the most freeing aspects of it was... And this is, I think, really unusual for an actress. So normally when we work, we have something that is called going through the works. Right? So what that means is that you get your hair and your makeup done and then you'll go to your trailer and you'll put on your costume. And I always use that experience and that time to sort of find my character a little bit through these externals. So for you guys, what did it feel like to be completely stripped down? On your first day you can't wear any makeup at all. Because they have to capture your face clean.

Sam Strelitz [00:42:37] That was like the best part.

Meeya Davis [00:42:39] Yeah you didn't have to do anything. You just roll out of bed.

Sam Strelitz [00:42:39] Exactly. And I was like, oh, my god. I loved that. There was no expectation. There was no one... I have had the experience on set of showing up natural so that hair makeup can do their thing and then walking out and people being like, oh my God, you look so beautiful. And this and that. And that always feels a little bit like... eugh. And so there was none of that. It was like, you got to see people how they really are. The guys were on the same level as the women. And it was amazing. To me, I was like, It me, showing up, doing me. And I loved it. But I agree that makeup and hair and costume really does help you get into character. They did have sort of a solve for that, right? Like there were screens that gave us an indication of costume in the world and the environment that we were in. But you can have an indication of what you would be wearing. So you would feel like you knew kind of how to move in that. You could see a little bit of how to move in that. At least that's how I felt.

Meeya Davis [00:43:38] In the beginning there wasn't any of... But I also was just like... Because you did have that prep of costume and makeup and stuff, because we didn't have it, it just made me feel more real as an actor in the room, like it was just me. Like there was no, I'm walking to the space, but it wasn't like let me prep in the hallway. It was just like, oh, we got to go. Okay cool, let me put my taco down and let me go. Like that's how it was. So when I got in there it was just like, oh, I have to do the work. Like, yeah, nothing is able to help me but me.

Jo Armeniox [00:44:17] Yeah. And the costumes not only fuel yourself from outside in, but also the way that you can use them to project onto other people. It's like, I'm showing you I am this thing, and I have this thing to back it, up not only for myself but for you as well. And you didn't have that either. So you really have to own and also figure out along the way who this person is and grow into them entirely from yourself.

Kylie Vernoff [00:44:41] In some ways it reminded me of theater. Like when you're going through a rehearsal process, I would never wear makeup or do my hair. I'm always in sweat pants. Until we start getting closer and I start sort of needing those externals. So in that way. But what you just said is really true, is that I didn't know who Susan was when I started. I don't think the writers knew who she was. I think it developed. We're all learning these characters. So if we had started with the externals, I think that you're more locked in. You're more locked in to who she was.

Jo Armeniox [00:45:15] And we didn't know what our characters were going to look like either. I mean, I was doing ADR when I had a version of Karen up, just to confuse me, that looked like Orlando Bloom. And I was like, oh, that's what I look like? That's cool.

Kylie Vernoff [00:45:29] I think I saw that. I think they were like, that is Karen. And I was like, what? I had no idea what Susan was going to look like.

Jo Armeniox [00:45:36] Yeah. Isn't that crazy? 

Sam Strelitz [00:45:38] Meeya knew what she was going to look. Like she was like, Hi! This is Tilly Jackson.

Meeya Davis [00:45:43] It me. It's my face.

Meeya Davis [00:45:44] When they reviewed it, I was like, wait. Did I sign off on you to use my face? We did a whole scan on your head when you came in here so yeah. This is your sixth time here, girl. Yeah.

Kylie Vernoff [00:45:59] Do people recognize you on the street because you look so much like your characters.

Meeya Davis [00:46:02] No. I do but I don't.

Jo Armeniox [00:46:05] She's not as pretty as you are.

Meeya Davis [00:46:09] Tilly is always like very sweaty. Any time I get a picture, she is like, glossy. And I'm like dewey skin, perfect. But like what is going on, sis.

Kylie Vernoff [00:46:19] I think, because the characters develop, I didn't know how old Susan was. I really didn't. And then when you first see her in Colter, so when I first played the game,  she withers in the cold. She really looked like... I was like, that's me? She looks a hundred. And she's wearing that big animal fur. She ran out of her hair color. I don't know what was happening there. But I really didn't know how old she was or that kind of stuff. And then. Did you guys have to go back and reshoot or rerecord anything? Tell me about that.

Sam Strelitz [00:46:53] I did, yeah. It was just a different intentions behind what she was saying. And I feel like that was, again, indicative of who they kind of wrote her to become and potentially what her future was in the game. And wanting to keep that trajectory really smooth and fluid. And so I went into ADR and I was there doing scenes that were perfect the first time. And just having to redo it, the dialog still remain the same. But the intention was different. And the way that the conversation was different, and I think it's fascinating, like all of that fascinates me. And I was like, oh, this is really cool that they actually course corrected.

Meeya Davis [00:47:35] Yeah. Or they like, realized like, wait a second, she had that scene, and this is not what it was. We need her to come back in.

Sam Strelitz [00:47:41] And that happened on set sometimes too. I remember we did one scene and it was like we were taking it like really serious. We were having like a... And Ron came and he was like, they're just having a laugh. And I was like, oh. Wow. Really? OK. But it's one of those things where you're like, oh, and it's because there's so much in the game that sometimes it's just a glimpse of a conversation, and it's not as weighted as we feel it is because we feel like we know the circumstances. It's like no, they're just real people living their lives. Having a laugh. Like that makes so much sense.

Kylie Vernoff [00:48:17] As actors, I think we get a scene and we want to lay that scene, but sometimes we are just adding color to the camp. So we're just people having a laugh or washing a dish.

Meeya Davis [00:48:37] When I was pregnant, and they had me do it, and I was like, these clothes are done. Okay? There is no more washing that Tilly needs to be doing. My knees hurt.

Sam Strelitz [00:48:47] The clothes are done.

Kylie Vernoff [00:48:51] Wait, let's just say here, for people who don't know, that you actually did maybe the last year while you were pregnant for real with Mason. So we are all very attached to this little boy. And Lucy. They're in love with each other. They have their own cross generational love affair. But what's amazing about MoCap is that you can still play your part because they can animate it.

Meeya Davis [00:49:22] Even though the walk. There's a couple of scenes in the camp where I'm like, oh. I'm waddling. Just a little bit. Maybe I'm just self concious. I can see that I'm waddling just a little bit more. I was like yeah, I was probably like seven months pregnant right there.

Kylie Vernoff [00:49:41] I was jealous of the sneakers. I was jealous o fhte footwear.

Meeya Davis [00:49:44] Yeah I got to wear sneakers. Every time I came in they like went up a size in the mocap suit for me.

Kylie Vernoff [00:49:53] I remember there was one day actually that you couldn't get to work because you were hardcore. You went right up to the end.

Meeya Davis [00:50:01] Yeah I did. It's because I'm a hard worker and I just wanted it to be perfect. And so that's why I did it.

Kylie Vernoff [00:50:10] And it was perfect.

Meeya Davis [00:50:13] They're like, don't come back after this. You're done. Tony was like, don't call me again.

Kylie Vernoff [00:50:32] All right, outlaws, that's a wrap, but stay tuned next week for the second part of this special campfire interview. And if you'd like to learn more about these incredibly talented women and what they're up to now, you can find Meeya Davis on her socials at meeyadavis, Jo [00:50:49]Armeniox [0.0s] on Instagram at Iiamjoarmeniox and on Twitter, at joarmenoix. And Sam Strelitz on her socials at samstrelitz, and on her website, samanthastrelitz.com.

Verta Maloney, the*gameHERs [00:51:12] Thank you for listening. Let's Play was brought to you by the*gameHERs, a community that connects all gamers who identify as women and welcomes people of all genders who support this. Let's Play was co-produced by Kylie Vernoff, Jenny Groza, and the*gameHERs team: laura Deutsch, Rebecca Dixon, Heather Ouida, and me Verta Maloney. Please visit thegamehers.com for show notes to access exclusive bonus material and to learn more about the*gameHERs community. And if you liked what you heard, we'd so appreciated if you subscribed and gave us a five star review. Thanks again for listening.