The Let’s Play Podcast

Episode 7

Leah Viathan

Live Streamer

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Leah Viathan [00:00:00] Now, I feel a little bit more comfortable with saying, like, I'm worth this because I've done work that proves that I've put the work in behind the scenes and I've been working towards that. But previously, I'd be like, oh, my God, I don't I'm not worth anything.

Leah Viathan [00:00:12] I'm Just the person playing video games, ahhhhh!!

Verta Maloney, the*gameHERs [00:00:21] Welcome to Let's Play by the*gameHers. A podcast hosted by actress Kaili Vernoff. Fans know Kaili best as the fiery Susan Grimshaw in Red Dead Redemption two. And Miranda Cowan and GTA five. Our series features some of the most informed and exciting people in the gaming industry today. Kaili and our guest discuss careers, gaming and so much more. If you like what you hear. Be sure to check out the Gamers.com Web site to hear exclusive bonus material from each of our guests.

Kaili Vernoff [00:00:56] Hey, everybody. Today's guest is the totally awesome London-based live streamer. Leah Viathan. Leah has been streaming since 2015, and she previously worked as a stream strategist and presenter for X Box UK. She's so delightful and an absolute badass, and I cannot wait for you to hear this one.

Kaili Vernoff [00:01:21] Leah, thank you so much for making time for this today. I'm so excited to talk to you.

Leah Viathan [00:01:25] No problem. Yes. My pleasure.

Kaili Vernoff [00:01:27] OK, so let's get right into it.

Kaili Vernoff [00:01:29] Tell me about your introduction to gaming. Were you always a gamer?

Leah Viathan [00:01:34] I mean, yeah, I kind of had like a break, I guess for a few years. But my parents were always into retro gaming. My dad had some of the Atari. He'd kind of, like, pearled me to play some of those classic games. Choose your own adventure. I put the cassettes in that kind of thing. And my mom was. Yeah, my mom was massively into sort of more like console gaming, I suppose. So she used to collect well like this Sega, Saturn, Genesis, Streamcast, She had like every console I think.

Kaili Vernoff [00:02:03] Oh my gosh. Your mom is so cool. So much more than me.

Leah Viathan [00:02:05] And then for Christmas one year they got me an Nintendo sixty four. So I think my, my I guess self propelled star into gaming was actually me playing Formula One grand prix. 

Leah Viathan [00:02:19] But I don't play racing games that much now so it's quite funny to me.

Leah Viathan [00:02:23] Yeah. I played a love that Super Mario 64. And then I kind of had a hiatus or a bit. We didn't really have much money, so we couldn't afford any of the new consoles or any new stuff coming out. So we got a lot of second hand games. The most my mom's console collection was second hand. So from like Car boots (flea market) and stuff, we had like second hand PlayStation.

Leah Viathan [00:02:42] We didn't have any memory cards or anything, so we couldn't save any of our games there. So you'd get partway through Zelda, then you'd have to stop and start again next time, it was a nightmare. And then.

Leah Viathan [00:02:53] And then. Yeah. When I was 16, I kind of begged my mum to buy me an Xbox for my birthday. So I got an Xbox and that was that really I've been playing Xbox ever since.

Kaili Vernoff [00:03:02] That's incredible. Did you start playing multiplayer games right away or were you doing more single player style?

Leah Viathan [00:03:08] Oh, yeah, I was 100 percent multiplayer only until really I started streaming. I was very heavily multiplayer only I played Call of Duty and Halo and that was pretty much it for about five years because I just I was too scared to do story games. I was worried that I wouldn't like them. So I never tried them because I didn't have any money. So I don't want to spend money on a game thst I didn't think I'd like, whereas I knew I'd like Call of Duty. So I always play that instead.

Kaili Vernoff [00:03:34] You know, it's so interesting. I think that so many people have this misconception about gaming that it's a way for people to isolate, especially young people. But I hear stories like yours and it feels a little bit more like it's the opposite, that it's highly social, right?

Leah Viathan [00:03:48] Yeah, absolutely.

Leah Viathan [00:03:48] Yeah. I mean, all of my friends now are through gaming, my whole life is evolving around gaming now. And I've been experience so many things and met so many amazing people through gaming that I wouldn't have met otherwise. So.

Kaili Vernoff [00:04:01] And do those connections feel more authentic to you? You know, I'll ask you why I'm asking that question. I've been following you on Twitter, getting ready to talk to you because I knew that I would be out of my depth. And it's fascinating to I read something that you wrote that said, "in real life, people listen to you because they want to say something. But on the stream, people listen because they want to know."

Leah Viathan [00:04:24] Yeah. Yeah. I think it's funny because a lot of connections you feel in real life, often the people you meet are not people you've asked to meet. They're just people you've come across and they look like people in their workspace, people who you wouldn't necessarily choose to hang around. But you just do and alot of people, they're not interested. They're just interested in getting their point across they don't really care. Whereas when you're streaming the whole point of streaming, as you're watching somebody else, you can't talk back to them. You can chat and chat. But, you know, I mean, like, it's a full flowing conversation with just the streamer. So I find it really interesting that you so I sit there streaming and I've got my flow of consciousness going on and the people are forced to listen to it. If they click on the stream, they're going to have to sit there and listen to me. So, yeah, I find that quite fascinating really.

Kaili Vernoff [00:05:08] I love that. I wouldn't have thought of that. But there is there's a way that it's this authentic relationship because there's this automatic shared interest.

Leah Viathan [00:05:16] Yeah. And I guess in some ways I feel guilty about that. I feel sort of almost selfish, I'm kind of a I'm there talking about me all the time and like, not really getting the feedback of like a real life person conversation. And in some ways that's actually made me worse. Like socially like I've I've been doing acting classes recently with like the Meisner technique, which is all about like emotional emotionally, reading other people. And I've realized how I'm so out of practice with emotionally reading other people because all of my oh like half my reaction comes from reading chat on a screen!

Leah Viathan [00:05:48] So yeah, it's hilarious to me really. But, I'm Fixing that.

Kaili Vernoff [00:05:52] Yeah. That's fascinating. You know, I was talking actually to another guest on this show about how, you know, these games are so social, but you don't get to read facial cues. When you're talking to someone which I think is sort of a reason, and we can get into more of this later. But a reason that there is such a problem with trolling and bullying because you don't see what you're doing to the other person. You don't see your insults cross their face.

Leah Viathan [00:06:19] Yeah. There's something I mean, it is something I've learned with these acting classes is how personal it feels when you've got a stranger in front of you and you are looking them in the eye. And it's some of these exercises involve provoking them with a nasty statement and like seeing that on their face. It's so, so different. So when you're just, like, typing it in a chat, like you're going to really you with your sort of human being, you're going to empathize with what they're feeling and that makes you feel bad and you want to avoid that. So, yeah.

Kaili Vernoff [00:06:43] Yeah, it's empathy building. Right. It's empathy building. OK.

Kaili Vernoff [00:06:48] So when you're getting ready to do your stream, do you have any pregaming, rituals, anything you need to do to get ready?

Leah Viathan [00:06:56] I am a last minute person that I am constantly doing  about a million and one things. So usually my pre stream ritual is, oh my God, no quick close premier pro quick. I'll maybe restart your computer. Otherwise it's going to lag. Restart the internet quick. Oh, go top up your makeup. Oh my God. No million things at once. And then I'll sit down, slam the start streaming button and run and make a cup of tea. Come back just in time to switch the screen and be like, hey guys. So yeah, sometimes I start the stream and I'll be honest, I'm in such a hectic headspace that I sit down. I cannot settle into the game. I'm just like, oh my God, I'm still like in the mindspace of trying to do a million things. So that's actually something I need to work on.

Kaili Vernoff [00:07:36] And it's a performance, really. I mean, you know, when you're sitting down to do your stream, you know that you're being watched. You talk about doing your makeup and stuff like that. Does does that performance energy affect your ability to really enjoy playing?

Leah Viathan [00:07:50] Yeah, because I'm I mean, a lot of streamers are different, for me is a different for me most of my enjoyment of streaming comes from comes from the community and in talking to people and my chat, is I mean, my opinion, very funny.

Leah Viathan [00:08:00] So I love hearing them react to what I'm doing and seeing what they're up to. And yeah, that it kind of does affect my performance because when I'm I'm trying to listen to the story of the game. But at the same time, I've got half an eye on chat and laughing at what they're saying, and I'm not taking anything in. And I'm in some ways, I mean, some people hate that because they just want to see you get engrossed in the game. And I really want to see you enjoy the game. And other people just want to see you chat to them. So, yeah.

Kaili Vernoff [00:08:27] So when when people want to see you chat to them. I was so curious about this because there was another thing that I watched that you were advising people on Twitter where you were saying, you know, look, don't tip a streamer with an ulterior motive. Right. Yeah. Don't try to develop a friendship or or build up your own following by tipping a streamer. So, yeah. What is like what is an appropriate ask when someone is tipping?

Leah Viathan [00:08:54] So most of the people I know and for myself, tipping is kind of a form of thank you. Kind of just being like I've enjoyed your content so far. I feel like, you know, usually I do it. The last three months I've paid was thirty pounds for a Netflix subscription. You know, I'm going to throw that to you instead. So I got entertainment out of watching you. So for me, that's how I feel it should be. If you're tipping me, it's because you feel like you've enjoyed the content enough that you want to give a little bit extra to keep the stream going in the future. For some people, they don't see it that way. For some people, it's kind of a I've given you money now, You owe me something. And that's something I've really tried to discourage. And often I've actually kind of refunded tips. And that's people don't don't do it. I don't I'm not interested in that. I'm not interested in taking your money under false pretenses. I don't. I'd rather you didn't. I'd rather not make the money.

Kaili Vernoff [00:09:39] Yeah. You know, I have to say, I was incredibly impressed with that, especially as a young businesswoman, for you to be able to set a boundary and say, I would rather not take your money if you're trying to get something that I'm not offering. 

Leah Viathan [00:09:54] Yeah, It might be like, I don't know, bad business practice. A lot people are like, wow, lots so stupid. Just take the money. Who cares? But for me, it doesn't sit right with me. And I had a point where alot of the people I've met on my stream are now kind of close personal friends. I've met a lot of really amazing people and there was a point in my stream what they'd be tipping me kind of like large amounts. Every now and then they kind of be dropping 100 pounds and some of these people I kind of knew that financially they weren't in an amazing place, you know, and I didn't want to patronize them and say to them, don't do that. You can't afford that. But I'm also not comfortable knowing that, you know, at the end of the day, I would survive if they didn't. And for them, that might be the difference between eating decent meals and eating noodles for the whole month.

Leah Viathan [00:10:31] And that is, to me, I can't, I can't, I dunno, in my heart, I can't take that. So I would refund these people over and over about to the point where I really get tips anymore and I'm okay with that.

Kaili Vernoff [00:10:43] So you've been able to sort of shift your position from tipping onto your streaming partnerships and your endorsements? Is that right?

Leah Viathan [00:10:50] Yes. Now, I'm partenered with Ford, which is sort of an amazing partnership, really such a big company. And I work with them every month. And I kind of and I was working with X Box before this year, and that was ideal to me. So I do find it interesting,  It doesn't sit well with me when streamers sort of brag about "I've just bought a brand new amazing car". And often it's that community who of course have banded together and I don't know, they've been the people to support them. And a lot these people don't have very much. They don't have you know, they don't own a house. They don't own a car. They barely have enough to sustain themselves. And they see that person who they supported kind of bragging about the money. There's one thing, you know, accumulating a lot of money through streaming. That's awesome. If you've if you're successful enough where you've done that, hell yeah, but don't throw it in the faces of the people who have then supported you knowing that they don't have that much themselves. And that might not be a popular opinion, but that's how I see it.

Kaili Vernoff [00:11:40] I know that's really interesting. I would never have thought of that. I mean, it's a tricky balance, right? Because you get to know them on the stream. I find that just a little, even just a little bit, when you'll you'll know the people that are coming to a comic con and and because they'll follow you on social media, you sort of get to understand a little bit about their daily lives. And so then you do you want to sort of protect them from overspending or.

Leah Viathan [00:12:04] Yeah. And then to go back to your previous point and taking sponsorships lifts that away a little bit because then I'm like I feel like I can say cool things. I can be like, look at this cool thing. I bought it because I know it's not coming from people, you know.

Leah Viathan [00:12:15] I mean, it's coming from a company here. I feel much more comfortable with taking the money from. But that comes with its own complications. But yeah, there is certainly something to say about meeting good friends in real life.

Kaili Vernoff [00:12:25] And I want to back up a little to what we were you were just saying about how that it comes with its own tricky stuff, because, you know, I think that a lot of women have a hard time sort of stating their worth and asking for compensation based on their specific skill set. And now they are into these partnerships. Have you been able to sort of overcome that and say, you know, this is what I bring to the table and this is what it's worth?

Leah Viathan [00:12:48] I think having an agent definitely helps me with that because I I'm so bad at it. I'm just I'm just doing it, especially in an industry like this, where you a lot the time you get lucky.

Leah Viathan [00:12:57] And I got incredibly lucky to be where I am right now. And the first year of streaming my channel blew up and that was luck. But now, over the last few years, I've kind of in sustaining my presence online. I feel like that's where the kind of multiskilled comes in rather than just luck alone. So now I feel a little bit more comfortable with saying, like, I'm worth this because I've done work that proves that I've put the work in behind the scenes and I've been working towards that. But previously, I'd be like, oh, my God, I don't I'm not worth anything.

Leah Viathan [00:13:27] I'm just the person playing video games, so it is definitely a experience thing.

Kaili Vernoff [00:13:32] Yeah. I mean, you are not alone. I think that sort of imposter syndrome always creeps in when when you fall into something that you've got a passion for, but you also are really skilled at it then and then you have to balance. How do I monetize this? And what's an appropriate ask?

Leah Viathan [00:13:51] Yeah. And that's why that's partially what pushed me into doing more acting classes and things like that, because for me that's more of a it's I can track the skill if that makes sense. I could kind of see where I've put the time and effort into succeeding in that kind of thing, whereas with streaming it's so hard to see what is something you personally have created for yourself and what is just being in the right place at the right time.

Kaili Vernoff [00:14:12] Oh, yeah. Yes. I'm so glad that you're taking acting classes, I really have enjoyed watching you. And I think that you do have a I mean, just your ability to sort of show your emotions. I think that that's I think that's gonna be a fun endeavor for you.

Kaili Vernoff [00:14:27] And I can't wait to see where it goes.

Leah Viathan [00:14:29] Yeah. It was one of those things. I was like, well, if I don't do it, I'm just gonna kick myself and say, why don't you just try? And then I just said, you know, if I'm really bad, at least I know I've I've scratched the itch and gone like that didn't work, nevermind so let's try something else.

Kaili Vernoff [00:14:42] So do you feel now that you thought the sponsorships and the partnerships, do you feel any pressure to be like, good at gaming?

Leah Viathan [00:14:51] I think I always have. I've always kind of held myself to a high standard of like I've always wanted to be more, you know, over average gaming. I've never been amazing. I'm not like the next ninja or anything, but I've always been. I can hold my own. Unfortunately, streaming, it's just so distracted most of the time.

Leah Viathan [00:15:06] Especially with how I stream. You kind of have to let go of that a bit because you realize that you're not going to be playing your best. You've got half an eye on chat. You're playing at like 50 percent capacity most of the time. So it's something that I had to combat by playing games off stream more often, which I never let myself do for the first three years of streaming. I was like, no, you should be streaming. If you're playing games, stop being lazy. And now I'm I'll play games off stream all the time. And it's nice because I can see my skill like I've been playing a lot of World of Warcraft so I can see where I'm improving. And that's been it's been nice. And alongside that, because I have the confidence now to know that I'm getting better at certain things. I don't care if I'm bad at other things I don't care if I'm on stream and I'm playing badly. I'm like, it is what it is. You know, you can't win them all.

Kaili Vernoff [00:15:50] I have to say, you know, I. I had never gamed at all until I started working with Rockstar. And when they were releasing Red Dead, they sent me the codes for Grand Theft Auto just so I could learn how to use the PS4 controller and sort of in that kind of rockstar way. This is going faster and this is...

Leah Viathan [00:16:07] Yeah. Yeah.

Kaili Vernoff [00:16:08] And I will never forget the very beginning. All I had to do was drive my car for Grand Theft Auto, just like drive my car. And I just kept hitting everything.

Kaili Vernoff [00:16:18] I mean, I, I wouldn't I didn't even make it three or four seconds. I have a teenage daughter and she just would have her head in her hands.

Leah Viathan [00:16:26] It's funny because, I mean, people do kind of underestimate, especially on Twitch.

Leah Viathan [00:16:30] Everyone is so used to seeing amazing players, they kind of don't realize that when they watch people who are just getting along in the game fine that they're doing pretty well. That an average is better.

Kaili Vernoff [00:16:40] And it's so satisfying when you finally when I finally was able to just do that first little skill before that really starts, it was kind of like their introduction.

Kaili Vernoff [00:16:49] I felt so accomplished.

Leah Viathan [00:16:51] And that's why you like, oh, I get gaming now look i understand as well.

Kaili Vernoff [00:16:57] I really do. And I think it's it's similar. You know, you were saying, like, it's hard to track your progress as a streamer, but as a gamer, you really can get better. I mean, to really see that your hard work is paying off.

Leah Viathan [00:17:11] Yeah. That is one of the hardest things for me about being a variety streamer, because I stream everything and anything and I don't spend enough time on one game to get really good at it. So I mean, and that's partially my own choice because I know that I don't have the patience a lot, the time to really go at one game. I guess maybe it's in my own head. I'm like, well, if you tried, you'd probably be kind of good, but I'm too scared to test that theory.

Leah Viathan [00:17:36] Yeah, it certainly I'm playing The Witcher at the moment and there's a lot of people coming into my chat who played a lot of it, who will like what is she doing? Why isn't she using this perfect method? Why is it. And I'm just like vibing. I'm just playing the game, enjoying myself. No pressure.

Kaili Vernoff [00:17:50] Do people ask you for, like, tips for how to get through a game and little cheat codes and stuff like that or. No?

Leah Viathan [00:17:57] Well, you spell a destiny.

Leah Viathan [00:17:58] So they'd be a lot of people who had kind of fallen off the destiny bandwagon and they'd come in and be like, oh, how can I level up quicker? How can I do this? How can you do that? And I was in a position where I could respond because I play a lot of that game these days. I mean, last night somebody came in and asked me what the best armour set was for The Witcher. And I was like, I've not got a clue! I was just playing the game to be honest. But luckily, because communities for certain games are so intensely involved with the game, they are usually in your chat and they can answer for you. So you people do get the help they want.

Leah Viathan [00:18:30] Yeah, for me, I'm just like uhh,.

Kaili Vernoff [00:18:33] Yeah, I have found that the passion of the fandoms are just overwhelming. I mean, it's cañon for them. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about being a female streamer. I saw another thread on Twitter where you were talking about how you don't even want to do. I think it's voice commands, right? Because as soon as men hear that there's a woman playing. Things get weird.

Leah Viathan [00:18:56] Yeah, it's it. I hate talking about it in a way, because there's so many men who've never experienced that.

Leah Viathan [00:19:03] They've never seen anything bad happen women in the games, you know, maybe they're quite respectful of women. And because they haven't seen that, they kind of the first instinct is to doubt that and be like, well, why? I've never seen that happen. That doesn't happen. Surely not. And then some of these people then end up getting quite aggressive and be like, it never happens. And some people just ignore it. But for a lot of people, it's kind of off thing to hear about it. If they've never experienced it because they think that you maybe you're overreacting and it's not till they see that first hand that they realize, oh, okay, maybe you're right.

Leah Viathan [00:19:33] Maybe there is a slight problem here. But I mean, I was playing, I was playing, wow, again, doing our first raid. And as soon as you get on Mic, I sort of I avoid being on microphone all the time and I had to be in for this guild. Right. Because you kind of need to communicate.

Leah Viathan [00:19:50] As soon as I said, like three words, I had a dude messaging me and being like, you've got a pretty voice. And all sorts of stuff. And I'm like, I. And then it's like getting weird. And like, obviously in voice chat, people treat it differently cause they kind of like maybe treat your kid gloves a little bit. And other dude see that. And they're like, oh. And there was a comment by one of the people in the guild who just kind of said, I hate it when girls raid because this is what happens. And that makes them put off playing with women because of all the guy's behavior.

Leah Viathan [00:20:17] And for me, that was the most frustrating thing.

Leah Viathan [00:20:20] I'm like, oh, my God, it's not my fault. I'm playing fine. I'm not be a flirtacious. I'm just communicating very basically. Very simply. And because of other people that. That's your reaction. Yeah.

Kaili Vernoff [00:20:31] Yeah, yeah. That's you know, it's funny. I now understand that whole thread you were saying it's not me. Yeah. Right. Like talk to the other men. So if someone were to ask you what in your opinion could be done to help promote a more tolerant and inclusive climate in gaming, what would you tell them?

Leah Viathan [00:20:49] It's funny because I feel that the more you push for more tolerance and inclusiveness, the more other people push against you, because the more you try and promote it, the more other people are sick of hearing about it. And it means that the people in the middle kind of side with the people they like better, which often ends up being people they identify with. So the people who are in the middle of that discussion are kind of like, hey, I'm sick of hearing about it. You know, I just shut up, just get on with it. So I think it's a really hard thing to to think about is how to improve that. For me, my tactic so far has just been to just exist, you know, just just exist, just be a woman in gaming, just continue to or offend people that you can be a normal woman. You can like makeup. You can enjoy doing cool girly things. You can, you know, whatever stereotype you girly thing people think of and You can also play video games like a regular person. So, you know, just been my tactic is just to kind of exist, I guess. And a lot of people don't like that because that's passive and that's not being active enough to combat the issues we've got right now.

Kaili Vernoff [00:21:49] But I don't know that I would call that passive. I mean, forgive me for interrupting, but I'm not staying in the conversation and holding your space actually is is doing a lot of good. You know, you are in a very tricky position, right? Because you are you are out there and you are doing something you love. And so for that reason, you do become someone that other girls will look to. Right?

Leah Viathan [00:22:13] Mm hmm.

Kaili Vernoff [00:22:14] You you will. And so staying in it and not shutting down and continuing to enjoy what you do, I think that you're affecting change.

Leah Viathan [00:22:23] You're right. So I just there's always a sense of guilt, I suppose, associated with not being more vocal and not using the platform I've got to be more outspoken. But I do think there's a lot of times where is counter intuitive. It doesn't it doesn't work the way you'd it to it does just put people off. And I think is that helping the cause is that helping it just be I don't want special treatment. I just want normalacy. See. You know, I want things to be normalized. And, yeah, it's it's walking a very fine line.

Kaili Vernoff [00:22:50] Yeah. I've heard from other women who also don't want to do voice commands who will you know, they'll play as like a male player just just because they want to have fun and they don't want every time they pick up their controller to be a fight against the patriarchy.

Leah Viathan [00:23:06] Yeah, I have like actual names in a  lot of my gaming things now I go is just like a neutral name that's neither male or female just to, you know, to really comabt that. And it's funny because when I first joined this guild discord, I was advised by my other female friend to change my picture on discord So it wasn't a woman in the picture so that people wouldn't automatically be put off.  And I was like that was just crazy to me. I was like, wow, like that to think that we have to go to that level to stop people being put off playing with you like I dunno.

Kaili Vernoff [00:23:36] Yeah, that is right.

Kaili Vernoff [00:23:37] Like hide. Hide who you are . Yeah. Ah yeah. Yeah. So, you know, you've also been pretty candid about your your struggles with depression and anxiety.

Leah Viathan [00:23:48] Yeah.

Kaili Vernoff [00:23:48] Which I, I'm so grateful for because that's you know, that's another, that's another area that I think people who are experiencing, they don't know who to talk to about it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Can be pretty isolating condition, anxiety and depression. And I'm wondering, does gaming help you with that? Have you found it as an outlet to help with anxiety and depression?

Leah Viathan [00:24:13] I think it's it's a bit 50/50. Single player games are often an act of escapism, and they can be used to further isolate yourself in a way. And that that can be very unhelpful. But in other ways it can get you out of your fun, can distract you. So it's a bit of both really 50/50. It's for me, I, I it is more of an exceptional case, I suppose, because what brought me out of my depression funk was twitch and streaming and the sudden distraction that growth on Twitch brought because it was to me extremely sudden. It was kind of like adapting to this new world. And a lot of my depression involved my situation. I had no money. I had no agency as a person. I had no. I felt like I didn't know what I want to do with my future. And for me, this was it solved those problems, I suppose. So it really helps my case. But that's not necessarily going to happen for anybody else. You know, I mean, that's so unique because it's a weird thing to happen. So it is hard to say with gaming because I think a lot of people are gaming as a community. A lot of people come to my stream after being into specific games. They watch my streams. They enjoy my, like, sort of upbeat personality, and that helps them be distracted. And I think maybe the active gaming necessarily doesn't help, Depression, anxiety directly. I mean, it could for some people. For me, it didn't necessarily. But the act of being in a gaming community can. So I think that's maybe the important distinction.

Kaili Vernoff [00:25:45] Right.

Kaili Vernoff [00:25:46] That makes a lot of sense. I've noticed that when I see a lot of the Red Dead fandom on on Twitter and on social media, they all will make these friendships and then they'll try to get themselves to a comic concert that they can take their friendships out into the world.

Leah Viathan [00:26:04] Yeah. You know, that's it. That's the important part, is the making sure that, you know, if you were involved in the fandom is is being active there and not letting yourself kind of isolate yourself further?

Kaili Vernoff [00:26:17] Right. Right. I think it can be a great practice arena, right, for people who might have social anxiety. A great way to sort of practice working together on a mission when they're playing games and collaborating.

Leah Viathan [00:26:31] And I've seen it in my community a few times. Some people, they are they have such bad social anxiety. Maybe, I dunno maybe you drop into a community, you get along with people, and then you say things that are a little bit awkward and off balance because you're not quite you know, you've not quite figured out how to talk to people necessarily because, you know, you've been isolating yourself for a while it's hard. And I don't know, maybe the Internet gives you an opportunity to start again fresh with another community if you have to. You know, it's not I mean, I wouldn't advocate doing that, but I have seen it happen a few times. And as far as I'm concerned, if you haven't done any lasting damage to people, as long as you are learning yourself, then that's beneficial to you. And that's that's kind of fine for me. But, yeah,.

Kaili Vernoff [00:27:11] That's really well said.

Kaili Vernoff [00:27:13] That's really well said. If you haven't done any lasting damage, then try again.

Leah Viathan [00:27:18] Right. Yes. I mean, I guess not the end of the world. You know, there's people I mean, there's people who come back to my community after being a bit strange in the past.

Leah Viathan [00:27:26] And, you know, you forgive and forget. You move on. You say, that's fine. You were a different person back then. As long as you think you've learned from that, that's all that matters. You know, we're going to obviously keep an eye on you, make sure that you're not going to lapse and back into old habits. But, you know, life's about growth. And a lot of these people in these communities are in that really awkward stage between like 16 to 24 where your. I mean, you're figuring yourself out. Everyone makes tons of mistakes during that time. That's fine. And it's sometimes you need a sympathetic understanding to understand that mistake, not let it happen again and move on so you become better and grow as a person.

Kaili Vernoff [00:27:59] Yeah, I think that's terrific. That's another way that you can really help the people that are following you right to just sort of be there and be mirror forgiveness and mirror second chances.

Leah Viathan [00:28:11] Yeah. And with that in mind, I mean, there was a drama a few years back with a website which was an online psychology counseling sort of thing. So they approached a lot of streamers and they said, we want to sponsor your stream. We are an online counseling thing. And for a lot of Streamers, as you come, you know, you start your stream and it's a bunch people being, oh, I'm depressed. I you know, even as far as saying they want to do something drastic, you know, and you're the only thing stopping them from doing it. And there's a lot of that. And it's scary. And for a lot of streamers, that was a lifeline to be like, oh, my God, yes. That's a counseling session thing. I can I can push them towards. I can help them without it was separating myself from their struggle because you don't want people to rely on you. People should never, ever, ever rely on you as a person to fix them and to make them feel good about themselves, because that's you can be a tool in their toolbox. You know, you can you can be somebody they can come to you to help themselves. But you should never be the cure for people, because that is that's not healthy for anybody. And this service, really, for a lot of people, that was that dream like, oh, my God, yes, I can push them towards that. I can take the pressure off myself. I can help people without it being about me. And unfortunately, this website ended up being a bit of a, not a sham but a lot of the psychologists ended up being not trained properly. There wasn't enough vetting on the Web site. It ended up being probably not dangerous, but it wasn't as highly a good idea for people to promote that kind of service. There was no guarantee that what you were getting was genuine. And that's, to me,  I found it sort of an onlooker, quite interesting because I was offered the same deal and I kind of turned it down because I did feel it was a bit kind of preying on gaming communities, knowing that there might be depression ongoing and had a preying on that and being like, give us money, we'll help you. But I did find it quite interesting how many streamers like that was the answer to their prayers and it didn't end up working out, but that so many people embraced that said a lot to me.

Kaili Vernoff [00:30:04] Yeah, I know. When our game was first released, a lot of the cast, we weren't prepared for what was going to come at us on social media. And and we would get people that would say things like that in our DMs. And you sort of think, you know, I don't. It's tricky to know what to do. You don't want to ignore someone in crisis, but you also don't want to encourage it, You don't want to feed into it.

Leah Viathan [00:30:28] Exactly yeah,.

Kaili Vernoff [00:30:29] And I'm not a psychologist. That is a really tricky position for you to be in.

Leah Viathan [00:30:33] Yeah, it is hard on anyone, especially if you're somebody who genuinely cares about your community. You don't want to leave them out in the dark. What if what if you were their last reach out, You know, how awful would that feel to know that you didn't help them when you could have done by the same time that it happened to me before, I've really tried to help people. I realized that actually they they would often I don't know, project their anger onto me when then, like, they put me on a pedestal and then because I act in a way that they didn't like. Then suddenly I'm the worst person in the universe and there'd be so much vitriol aimed at me. And that is awful. And that is you realize after some time that in reflection that that's not you. It's not your fault. That's them. They're having issues and it's then trying to realize how to not put yourself in that position again.

Kaili Vernoff [00:31:15] Right. You're like, I'm a woman. I'm playing a video game. I'm interested in your life, but I cannot save you.

Leah Viathan [00:31:23] Yeah, I can't fix you. But I can definitely, you know, be a smiling face if you want to see someone friendly. That's all I can do that I mean that. I can do that genuinely and with my whole heart. But I can't fix your depression for you. You've got to do that yourself.

Kaili Vernoff [00:31:36] That is a really tricky balance. That is a really tricky balance. I wonder if there's room for some of these large streaming services to actually have someone that's been vetted, a place for you guys to direct someone.

Kaili Vernoff [00:31:50] That yould be amazing, right? Yeah, it would be amazing. It's you know, I think that's something that people should know more about or think more about or put resources towards.

Leah Viathan [00:31:59] Yeah, that would be amazing. So unfortunately, I guess it's such a big issue, so widespread. And with mental health being devalued across many countries at this point is, you know, money being taken out of funding. It just becomes more of more of an issue, it's umm, it's hard, you know.

Kaili Vernoff [00:32:15] You're right. All right. So let's lighten this up. What would you tell me is the biggest myth or misconception about what you do for a living?

Leah Viathan [00:32:25] Oh, gosh. Probably that I make loads of money, that I make bank. I certainly don't make enough to live off month a month.

Leah Viathan [00:32:32] And I'm definitely I held my hands up,  I'm 100 percent better off than I could be otherwise. Like, I've got savings and things like that. So that's amazing. But I'm not, like, making millions or anything like that. I remember one time the BBC reported that I had 150,000 subscribers on Twitch because they confused, following number and subscribers and obviously a subscriber on Twitch. Twenty one in the know is like money. That's. That's, you know, potentially two dollars fifty or more a month in your pocket. So for some people, "She's got 150,000 subscribers!! She's loaded!"

Leah Viathan [00:33:07] And that was a heavily inaccurate.

Kaili Vernoff [00:33:10] Oh, wow. Yeah. That's a big mess up.

Leah Viathan [00:33:14] Yeah, It was pretty bad. But I think the, I dunno, I suppose the conception. Oh, also, I get asked a lot, "so you get paid to play games?"  And I'm like, well no, no. Like unless I get a specific sponsorship deal, I'm not getting paid to play the game. If I sit there and didn't talk and just I'd like my resting bitch face on as always, and  I'd played games, no one's going to pay that, you know, for the entertainment, theyre there for the personal factor. I'm entertaining people via the medium of games and they're paying me for that service, but I'm not being paid to play games.

Kaili Vernoff [00:33:45] That is a really good distinction. I like that. So what would you say is the best part of your job besides marmalade? Marmalade. Absolute star. By the way.

Leah Viathan [00:33:55] Yes. She knows exactly what to do aswell, Playing up to the camera.

Kaili Vernoff [00:33:58] Oh, my. She is a beautiful cat. She's gorgeous.

Leah Viathan [00:34:02] Shes laying next to me,  she can hear.

Kaili Vernoff [00:34:04] But other other than Miss Marmalade. What would you say is the best part of your job?

Leah Viathan [00:34:09] I think at the moment in particular, it's the freedom of variety, which I mean, it's actually I don't think that what a lot of streamers would say  because I think a lot of people feel very trapped in streaming every day for hours and hours on specific games. But I'm like,  I'm so desperate, push out with that mindset. So now I'm like because I'm doing these acting classes and I've got the freedom. If I want to during the day, I can go to an audition without feeling like have to take time off work. I'm doing a podcast on the side as it all ties in with what I'm doing on stream. You know, it's all still gaming, but I get to research about games and I get to put it into a podcast and do my own work. I get to edit my own videos together and do whatever I want to in them. So for me, like I get bored really quickly doing the same thing all the time. So I need variety. And that for me is perfect. I get to change things up whenever I want to.

Kaili Vernoff [00:34:56] Yeah, I love that about what I do too. And what would you say is the most challenging part of your job?

Leah Viathan [00:35:02] I suppose it's it's divorcing yourself worth from your performance because you might have your lowest ever viewers on a stream, but you're being the most entertaining you've ever been. And that's because of maybe just factors on twitch the game. Stuff like that. You know, stuff happens and it's making sure that you're not taking it so personally that you put yourself down and you're making yourself not one stream anymore because of external factors. And it's really hard because obviously those things will affect your income. And then if you don't have the income, you're not gonna be able to continue streaming. Youre going to have to find other the work and that's all going to mess with your head a lot. So it's it's trying to tell yourself constantly that you're doing the best you can continue going. Don't stress too much about the little details day to day.

Kaili Vernoff [00:35:50] I love that. I love that. It's so true, and you'll find this as you as you move more into acting that that separating yourself from your. It's impossible when you are the product. And you go on audition and you do something that you are so proud of. And you were in the moment and you don't get the job. You have to say that that's not a failure.

Leah Viathan [00:36:12] Yeah. It just wasn't me they were looking for. And that's OK. And that's. Yeah. I think to be honest the acting thing has helped that a lot because I'm kind of like I separated myself from the craft a little bit  because I'm kind of just like, well, if that's if theyre not looking for me. That's not necessarily on my performance. That's just they've got this idea of what they want. And I just wasn't that. And that's OK. And that doesn't mean you're a failure. That just means you weren't what they were looking for right now.

Kaili Vernoff [00:36:35] Right. They wanted vanilla ice cream. And you can be the best strawberry ice cream cone. But if that's not what they want.

Leah Viathan [00:36:41] Exactly.

Leah Viathan [00:36:42] And that to me ,I mean, i dunno that helps me so much, it helps me get out my own head and be like, shut up. Carry on. Just do your thing.

Kaili Vernoff [00:36:49] Yeah, thats great. That's a terrific perspective.

Kaili Vernoff [00:36:52] So so since we know from just, you know, being in a community.

Kaili Vernoff [00:36:58] Right. We're all in these communities of artists and you're in the gaming and you're in the artisan. And we know that we can't do anything just by ourselves in a vacuum. I would love to give you an opportunity to tell me about a time in your life or in your career when someone saw something special in you and and gave you an opportunity to shine.

Leah Viathan [00:37:18] OK. So this is kind of out of left field, I suppose. This is of before I start streaming. I ran or helped to run a motocross event. So I was. I was a videographer.

Leah Viathan [00:37:28] I went and filmed World Championship Motocross. And I helped to run a big event in the UK.

Leah Viathan [00:37:35] And I was sort of a big part of the organization. I didn't really get paid for it per say and I would just trying my best to, like, navigate this scary world. And I was young. I was a sort of 19 when this was happening and I had no prior experience of this. But we did it and we put on a successful show each year and it was really good. And one year, the the head of the the organization that runs the World motocross Championship came to me and asked and offered me a job with them and said, Do you want to come and work with us doing what you're doing here? But on like a wider scale for the world championships. And I was like I was flabbergasted. I was like, wow, that's crazy.

Leah Viathan [00:38:15] I turned the job down because it just it would involve a lot of travel. And it wasn't, I didn't think it felt right for me at that point in time. And if I hadn't turned that job down, I wouldn't be here now. So it's probably for the best. But I mean, at that point, I was like, oh, my God. Well, it was really cool.

Kylie Vernoff [00:38:31] I love that story because it it wasn't even something that you wanted to go forward with. But still, you were you were working hard. You were basically unpaid and someone saw your potential.

Leah Viathan [00:38:44] Yeah. And whether said it was just a case of like, oh, she's young. We don't have to pay very much just to which, you know, happens. I still it still feels good to me. So I keep that in my heart. And I'm like, remember that time someone saw you and thought, that's that's good. And that helps me continue my stubborn adventures. I love that.

Kaili Vernoff [00:39:02] Well, I cannot tell you how delightful this has been for me. I really I'm learning a lot from you. And I, I think that what you're doing is is really important. And I think that stuff that you said about holding space or that I said, but I see in you about existing. Right. That's what. Yeah. Existing here.

Kaili Vernoff [00:39:20] I think that you are doing a lot of good and you're having a lot of fun. And I really I just I am so grateful that you made time for me today.

Leah Viathan [00:39:28] Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Kaili Vernoff [00:39:31] For me, too.

Kaili Vernoff [00:39:32] OK. Thank you so much.

Leah Viathan [00:39:34] Thank you.

Kaili Vernoff [00:39:42] I loved talking to her. And you can catch Leah's Streams every Monday through Thursday on Twitch Dot T.C. H slash Leah to stay updated on her adventures. Please follow at Leah Viathan on social media. And check out her new podcast, Explorers Guild. Available on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Verta Maloney, the*gameHERs [00:40:05] Thank you for listening. Let's play I was brought to you by the gamers, a community that connects all gamers, who identifies women and welcomes people of all genders who support this. Let's Play It was co-produced by Kaili Vernoff, Jenny Groza and the gamers team, Laura Deutche, Rebecca Dixon, Heather, Anita and me Vernoff Malony. Please visit the gamers dot com for show notes to access exclusive bonus material and to learn more about the gamers community. And if you liked what you heard, we'd so appreciated if you subscribed and gave us a five star review. Thanks again for listening.