Zainab "Zee" Ebrahimi, Software Developer (Part 2)
In Career Spotlight, the*gameHERs team interviews women who have found or created work within the gaming industry (or adjacent tech industries) in areas outside of playing, streaming, or competing.
This week’s interviewee is Zainab “Zee” Ebrahimi, a software developer who has worked for Bitly and Skillshare and on many of her own projects.
In PART TWO of this interview, we talk about representation of women coders in media, work environments for engineers, creating inclusive spaces for women and gender minorities in the world of tech, and advice for gameHERs interesting in getting into the field of software engineering.
This section is part two of a two-part installment of our conversation. Read part one here!
This interview has been edited for length and clarity from a longer conversation.
Zainab “Zee” Ebrahimi, photo courtesy of the subject
The*gameHERs:
YOU SPOKE BEFORE ABOUT REPRESENTATION, AS IT WAS SO IMPORTANT IN YOUR DECISION TO CHOOSE THIS CAREER. WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW WOMEN WHO CODE AND WOMEN WHO ARE DEVELOPERS ARE REPRESENTED IN MEDIA AND IN POPULAR CULTURE, DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S BEEN REFLECTED IN YOUR EXPERIENCE OF THE NUMBER OF WOMEN [IN THOSE ROLES] THAT YOU HAVE ENCOUNTERED in THE REAL WORLD? ARE THE NUMBERS OF WOMEN THAT YOU SEE AND HOW THEY REPRESENTED IN MEDIA AND POP CULTURE SIMILAR TO LIKE WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED IN YOUR JOBS?
Zainab “Zee” Ebrahimi:
In the beginning, it was very, very hard to find any other women. I was generally the only woman in my classes. Then I was generally the only woman in my first couple of jobs. As my career has grown and I've been able to be a little bit pickier about the places I work at, it's been really important for me to be in a place where other women are a part of the engineering team. I've been very lucky to be in situations where the engineering team is about 40-50% female, or to be in situations where we have female representation in the engineering leadership. This has been a huge privilege, and now that I’ve had that I honestly wouldn't go back. But I know that that's, like I said, a privilege, and it’s not the norm at all.
When you go to tech conferences, the number of women is very sparse, but it's actually growing. I think that we're trying to make spaces for women — and not only women, also gender minorities – to feel like they belong, to feel like they want to stay, to feel like this is a place where we can all grow and build, because the reality is not that women and gender minorities don't want to be a part of the industry. I think it's that once they join the industry, they feel very discouraged and leave because they have really bad experiences with discrimination and feeling lonely. Also, Imposter Syndrome is a huge thing – it’s something that I've grappled with for a very long time during my career.
So let me make sure I'm going back to your question…
G.H.:
I GUESS MAYBE TALKING ABOUT WHAT YOU'VE EXPERIENCED FIRST IS A BETTER WAY TO ATTACK THAT QUESTION ANYWAY.
TO PUT IT ANOTHER WAY: IT SEEMS THAT FROM MY PERSPECTIVE AS SOMEBODY WHO HASN'T WORKED AT ALL AS A SOFTWARE ENGINEER THAT WHEN I THINK OF MOVIES THAT HAVE CHARACTERS WHO ARE WRITING THE CODE IN THEM, I DON’T THINK: “OH THAT ROLE IS A IS USUALLY A WOMAN.” I'M USUALLY SEEING THE SAME KINDS OF MEN TYPECAST IN THESE ROLES OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I THINK ART IMITATES LIFE AND LIFE ALSO IMITATES ART, SO IN THIS CASE, I'M WONDERING WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR EXPERIENCE IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF WOMEN THAT ARE ACTUALLY IN THOSE ROLES IN THE REAL WORLD VERSUS ON TV AND IN MOVIES?
Z.E.:
It’s very small [in both movies and reality]. So the fact that those roles get cast by men, it is kind of reflecting the reality of it, but I think that the media does, like you said, influence reality as well. So like I think it is important for the media to start showing different faces for these particular roles. I think it's extremely important.
There definitely are [women coders]. I went to a beautiful conference last year called Write/Speak/Code where it's only for women and gender minorities, and it was amazing. It was invigorating to for the first time to be around so many women in tech. I think we need more spaces like that. [A conference like that] makes you realize that you're not alone. A lot of times you do feel alone, but we're not. There are definitely women out there doing great things, and in leadership positions, and making amazing contributions to tech, it’s just that we don't see it as much [in media]. We need more visibility into those spaces.
G.H.:
DO YOU FEEL THAT AS SOMEBODY WHO'S WORKED IN TECH AND ALSO AS SOMEBODY WHO IDENTIFIES AS A WOMAN THAT YOU ARE CAST IN THIS ROLE AS BEING THE “WOMAN DEVELOPER?” DO YOU CHOOSE TO IDENTIFY AS A WOMAN CODER OR DO YOU FEEL THAT THAT ROLE IS CHOSEN FOR YOU JUST BECAUSE OF HOW FEW WOMEN ARE IN THAT SPACE? DOES IT FEEL LIKE A TOKENIZED ROLE?
Z.E.:
It's an interesting question. I think that you hold a lot of emotional burden as the only woman in a technical space because you do get stereotyped. You do feel like you have to prove yourself extra, especially when it comes to your knowledge. I think there is a general feeling that women developers are not as technical as male developers, or don't know as much, or don't have technical opinions. And I think I tend to feel that pressure sometimes, unfortunately, to choose my words carefully or choose my questions carefully. This is definitely something that I've heard about from other [women coders] as well. I definitely think that we need to do some reckoning in terms of how we've treated the space, how we create trust, and how we create a space for everybody to feel comfortable to be themselves, no matter what their background is.
I do define myself as a woman coder because I'm proud of it.
Also, I have to be aware of the fact that because I’m a woman I may feel like I have to prove myself in a way that may be slightly different than those of my male colleagues. To be aware of that difference helps me be a little bit more kind to myself. I know that [I can slip into] thinking that I'm not good enough or thinking I can't do something, etc. That’s one aspect.
Another aspect is that I want to create more safe spaces for other women to be in and so my identification [as a woman developer] helps me remember or remind others: “Hey, we want to make the space kinder,” or “we want to make the space more trusting,” or “we need more diversity and inclusive programs and projects.” I can keep [my perspective] top of mind.
One more thing: because representation was such a huge thing for me in getting into this field, being a woman in tech and also identifying as a woman of color, I feel like it's super important to share that [representation] with other young women of color. I want them to be able to see that I'm in this field, and I love it, and there's a place for them to thrive as well.
G.H.:
YEAH, IT MAKES SENSE TO ME THAT CONSIDERING YOUR START AS SOMEBODY WHO TOOK SO MUCH FROM SEEING THAT IMAGE [OF MAGGIE MADSEN IN TRANSFORMERS] AND LETTING THAT WORLD THAT YOU SAW IN FRONT OF YOU LEAD YOU TO CREATE YOUR OWN FUTURE for yourself, THAT NOW YOU WANT TO MAKE A WORLD THAT OTHER YOUNGER PEOPLE CAN SEE AND be inspired by.
ONE THING THAT I WANT TO ALSO TALK ABOUT IN TERMS OF LIKE A CULTURAL ASSUMPTIONS VERSUS REALITY -- AND MAYBE YOU CAN DEBUNK THIS OR SPEAK TO THIS A LITTLE BIT -- IS THAT FROM MY UNDERSTANDING, IT SEEMS THAT GENERALLY BEING A DEVELOPER IS A REALLY STRESSFUL JOB. THERE SEEM TO BE A LOT OF PERKS, LIKE THE ABILITY TO DRESS VERY CASUALLY AT WORK, BUT IT SEEMS the job CAN ALSO BE EXTREMELY TOXIC IN CERTAIN WAYS. CAN YOU speak a bit about THE DEVELOPER WORK ENVIRONMENT?
Z.E.:
I think that's a really good question because in this industry it really depends on the company you work for. There are companies that are more old school and will overwork their engineers. Unfortunately, burnout is something very common in this field. A lot of people experience it. The pressure is real. As an engineer, you won't be expected to ever wear a suit, but you might encounter a more uptight culture that can be toxic.
Zee and colleagues at the Write/Speak/Code conference, photo courtesy of the subject
But not all organizations are like that. I'm privileged and fortunate to have worked at some companies where they cared about work-life balance and it's becoming a trend. It's definitely something that more and more companies are trying to embrace, because the reality is that when companies care about work-life balance you have much happier engineers. They come to work and do their best work. When they're well-rested, when they're able to do other things at home, they’re just healthier in general – mentally, physically, etc.
Most of the startups I’ve worked at also cared about the culture they created in the workplace. Companies like that spend on outings, happy hours, catered lunches and snacks, even sleep pods(!), and activities where people can have fun while at work. They care about the idea that your team needs to jell and learn how to work with each other, know each other and spend good times together [as well as just working].
My experience of the industry has not been extremely toxic. I am very thankful that the amount of discrimination that I've encountered has been really mild. But I know it's not like that for everyone. I think it's important to continue to elevate the companies that are doing good work and try to make sure that the entire industry follows their lead.
G.H.:
DO YOU HAVE ANY TIPS FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT WANT TO GET INTO THIS FIELD WHO ARE WOMEN-IDENTIFYING, FEMME-IDENTIFYING, NON-BINARY IDENTIFYING GAMehERS, OR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GET INTO CODING? WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO PEOPLE WHO MIGHT HAVE RESERVATIONS ABOUT ENTERING THIS INDUSTRY BECAUSE OF THOSE toxic environments?
Z.E.:
I would say that we're here. There are a lot of us that are trying to create spaces so that we feel like we belong, and there's a place for us.
I think coding in general, but specifically web development is like a superpower. Everything is on the internet these days and it’s not changing any time soon. Being able to build an application or a website that can make someone's life easier or better is pretty amazing! I don't know. I love it. I feel like it gives you a lot of power, not only in terms of what you can do for others through the tools that you build, but also what you can do for yourself. This industry is booming. I feel like we're in a little bit of a bubble where there's so much demand for software engineers, for web engineers, for app engineers.
I come from a very humble background, and this has helped me support my family. I feel extreme privilege for it. We can spread that.
If you're interested in this in this field because you're passionate about building fun websites, or solving problems with the help of the internet, or you're curious about it, do it! The key is in learning what kind of job you want and the environment you want to be in and being able to recognize that when you’re interviewing for jobs. I definitely can tell which companies I want to work at and which ones I don't [want to work for] depending on the kinds of conversations that I have with the people I’m interviewing with. The demographics of the team have a lot to say [about the company]. So I ask sometimes: “how many women are on your engineering team?” or “what are the demographics of your company?” And that gives me a say: do I want to join this company or not?
When I say “we're here” I mean it. We're here to help and support. If anybody is curious or has questions, I'm always happy to give out my email. Reach out!
Follow Zainab “Zee” Ebrahimi:
Twitter: @zainab3brahimi
Instagram: @zeeberry
LinkedIn: Zainab Ebrahimi
Missed part one of this interview? Read it here.
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